[yse]

This has been going on long enough. By my count it's been 2 years and 8 months since TBG became known to TSC. Let's set the record straight.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Smart idea yse. Can't wait to see the results after all these years of debating and hiatus...

[General Throatstomper]

Finally, a poll addressing tbg. Is it...fifth times the charm?

Even if a concensus is reached, it's not like tbg is being phased out. We'll have to go back and individually inspect each time to determine if tbg played a part (though obviously it will for anything done by Team Dark).

To summarise, in a nutshell, the arguments of both sides for all these topics ever:

Pro Banning TBG
More balanced rankings
Less ambiguities for newer players
Able to shift focus on other things
Inspire more playing of Heroes
Less polls about TBG

Con Banning TBG
Massive sifting period
Massive resubmissions
Negation of current freestyle times (...there are freestyle times for SH, right?)
Questioning of other, valid techniques (emerald restarting, box boosting, etc.)
Always another way of beating the system (for Team Dark anyways)

Personally, I'm pro banning tbg in concept, but con banning tbg in practice.

[magnum12]

There is no freestyle competition in SH. I think its time we settled this once and for all. I'd say that the TBG debate is probably one of the most controversal competition related issues discussed in the history of TSC.

[KnucklesSonic8]

I wholeheartedly agree, magnum.

[sonicam]

I have always wanted it to be banned or Freestyle'd but it never happened and as genus says, it will never happen. There are far too many stats for Heroes and us going though all of them is very unlikely. I've only recently given up on not TBGing as I see magnum has done the same with his new stats. Some of my times I can remember I TBG'd as I've put notes in some of my stats stating so. but really, I don't think the question should be, what should be done about TBG, but better yet, IS anything going to be done about TBG. As genus says, this is like the 5th topic pertaining to it and nothing has been done. I say Freestyle it or leave it as is, but I'll stand by Freestyle.

[magnum12]

Where have you been in the last few months. The real embarassing and annoying part of this revived discussion is that I gave up all hope just hours before it begins. Arrgh! Oh well, those records were in a back up copy of my data just in case we actually do something so I can give those records the ax myself.
-BTW, most of the basic stuff about TMC's structure (in .doc format) is finished. All I need to do is submit the charts, guides, and structure to Rolken. I'll have to make a revision to the revised structure document since apparently MMAC's easy difficulty for MM2 does more than adjust the defense of bosses, making it not the same as the NES normal mode. I was also considering adding an Ultimate Zero division to MMZ2-4, and a no cyber elf/fusion elf rule for MMZ1, and MMZ2-3's normal Zero division, but I need some feed back on that. I also wrote a MMBN element weakness chart and a MMZ series guide to help people who are new to the series have a more enjoyable experience.

[sonicam]

Where have you been in the last few months. The real embarassing and annoying part of this revived discussion is that I gave up all hope just hours before it begins. Arrgh! Oh well, those records were in a back up copy of my data just in case we actually do something so I can give those records the ax myself.
-BTW, most of the basic stuff about TMC's structure (in .doc format) is finished. All I need to do is submit the charts, guides, and structure to Rolken. I'll have to make a revision to the revised structure document since apparently MMAC's easy difficulty for MM2 does more than adjust the defense of bosses, making it not the same as the NES normal mode. I was also considering adding an Ultimate Zero division to MMZ2-4, and a no cyber elf/fusion elf rule for MMZ1, and MMZ2-3's normal Zero division, but I need some feed back on that. I also wrote a MMBN element weakness chart and a MMZ series guide to help people who are new to the series have a more enjoyable experience.

Been really busy with miscellaneous stuff. Didn't really have much time to TA, worked over the summer and now schooling.

Don't worry too much about caving in. I'm not surprised, you lasted longer than I did.

Regarding the differences between MM2 NES Normal and MMAC MM2 Easy, I wasn't aware of that difference either, but I don't think that it should be that big of a deal. I don't think it should warrent seperate charts. It's basically the same as Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 GG. Here on TSC, GG is the representation; however, the Master System versions are also used to submit for the same chart and there are quite a few differences between the two. Yet no seperation. Perhaps we can/should do the same here.

Ultimate Zero? Do you mean Ultimate Mode? If you mean Ultimate Mode, Zero 1 has an Ultimate Mode too IIRC.

[Shadow Jacky]

just to say, I'm working on de-TBGing some of my times...so far I did 2 and did better without it.

[yse]

Alright guys.

It's looking pretty definitive at 4-13 against TBG.

All that needs to be done is for people to identify which of their times used the glitch so they can be moved off the charts. In some cases this is rather obvious (see: most Dark times, particularly bosses) but on most it's not so easy. So we need your co-operation.

I'm hoping people's lists will be rather short overall so that they can all be remembered, obviously.

I'm going to quickly go through my timesheet and list my times here. I'll edit a second list with my brother's times to move once I work out which ones he did.

TIMES
PP - Chaotix

EXTRA
PP - Chaotix again. As you can see I never did these to any great level heh.

BOSSES
Egg Hawk - Dark
Egg Albatross - All
Egg Emperor - Dark
Metal Madness

I know, my times suck. Even moreso considering I used TBG for those. >_>

[Shadow Jacky]

well I'm almost done with re-doing my TBG stats with 2 remaining overall now.

Dark:  Mystic Mansion: Time (plan on correcting this soon for my tape)
Chaotix:  Robot Storm  (I dont really care for this, and it was just on a run to get lives faster)

[sonicam]

Hmm, I'm pretty that I only used TBG on the Dark Bosses, but I kinda forgot what others were TBGed, I just know that it's very minimal. I know of two that were TBG'd, Egg Hawk and Egg Albatross. I think all of my Robot Carnival times were TBGed with exception to Dark, but I'm not too sure. I wouldn't understand why I would TBG all the other teams but not Dark, so I'm skeptic about that, but I'm sure Psyborg used TBG for his and I'm close to him so I'm inclined to think the were TBG'd. Confirmation ASAP.

[Groudon]

I used TBG on many areas, but for most, it never mattered.  I TBG'd briefly on some Dark extra missions and heavily on others.  Also, on the 2 Chaotix extra stealth missions, TBG was used so much, those times are crappy.  And there's absolutely no way to see if TBG was used for RAing, since it's a hell of a lot harder to determine if it was used or not.

[magnum12]

Here's the stuff I used TBG on.
Seaside Hill (Both Dark)
Ocean Palace (Both Dark)
Grand Metropolis (Both Dark)
Egg Hawk (Dark)
Robot Carnival (Dark).
Egg Albatross (Sonic and Dark)
Robot Storm (Dark)
Egg Emperor (Dark). I wish I got my old legit one (47 seconds) on tape since that was a sweet run.
Metal Madness.
I think we should also check smizzla's times since SJ and I suspect TBG use on many of the extra dark missions. I'd also check some of Rayku's boss times as well.

[KnucklesSonic8]

MY TBG'd stats are... wait a minute! I never had any! :P

But I know that that's true that a lot of Dark times have used the TBG. Boss Times too: Probably most predominantly the Robot Carnival/Storm stages. Next to Emperor and maybe Albatross? Egg Hawk also. Metal Madness is definitely another one as well.

I can go back and check other's times and see what I can observe...

And magnum, you're right, some of smizzla's times are somewhat suspicious...